Subscribe right here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Overcast | Pocket Casts

One factor tomorrow’s election will check is Individuals’ urge for food for chaos, notably the type that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous few months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of operating a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic workers author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer season interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the angle of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign workers instructed Alberta that they grew to become disillusioned about their means to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.

Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election final result? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we speak with Alberta and one other Atlantic workers author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump remodeled over the summer season, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally supply tips about handle your internal chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.

The next is a transcript of the episode:

Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and it is a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. In some unspecified time in the future, their planes have been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.

Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about capturing reporters; Kamala Harris mentioned regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race remains to be one of many closest in American historical past.

Anyway, on this episode, I need to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me right this moment two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.

Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.

Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.

Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.

Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned right this moment?

Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.

Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply previous. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I believe.

Leibovich: It’s positively flattering.

Alberta: We don’t use veteran.

Rosin: No, veteran is previous. How about lively?

Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very lively. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?

Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to strategy Tuesday night time.

Leibovich: Mainly, I’m making an attempt to gather a useful toolkit to strategy Election Day from kind of a sensible standpoint so far as what info you possibly can ignore, but additionally a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Evening protection will in all probability overload you with.

And that features Donald Trump in all probability declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, shall be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, nevertheless it additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to sort of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow night time shall be like—which shall be clearly very anxious for lots of people.

Rosin: I see. So as an alternative of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient info.”

We all know that there in all probability isn’t going to be, kind of, instantaneous early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes huge open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of perhaps Tim wants this recommendation.

Leibovich: Nicely, I’m making an attempt. Nicely, I believe all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I believe it’s an strategy to how we eat info, how we get info.

I talked to a few Democratic consultants who mentioned that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any sort of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Evening.

There’s a number of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely info that’s needed, which, essentially the most worthwhile info goes to return in in all probability after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It may very well be days later. The concept is the information will discover you. Flip off your telephone should you can. Info is coming in haphazardly from one million totally different instructions, out of order, in no specific sequence by any means, about one thing that has already occurred—which means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is principally simply folks throwing info out in no order, and it isn’t essentially—

Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—

Leibovich: —Not cumulative.

Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.

Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one purpose you possibly can skip that half.

Rosin: Fascinating. Tim, do you assume you may try this?

Alberta: I worry that within the try to not drive myself loopy, I’d drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’ll discover your mind stacking up with all the issues that different folks know that you just don’t, as a result of in that second you will have determined to sequester your self or at the least to kind of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.

And subsequently the exit polling displaying the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that may very well be the little parcel of knowledge that’s needed so that you can imagine that you’ve got lastly found out this electoral equation and that you’ve got a bead on it on this second.

It’s a recreation of inches, and the inches are in every single place round us, Hanna. So how may I quit any of these inches after we are so near the tip of the sport? I need the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it practical.

Rosin: Hmm. You know the way generally you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll take into account that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the traumatic a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been protecting the Republican aspect intently, and you lately spent a number of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.

How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?

Alberta: I’d describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.

Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I believe the context right here is admittedly necessary: that this Trump marketing campaign, in contrast to the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly good.

The folks operating the marketing campaign had achieved a reasonably good job of retaining Trump out of his personal method and speaking him out of unhealthy concepts and kind of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is principally Trump going full Trump, and an lack of ability amongst these senior advisers to actually do something to cease it.

This has been sort of the proverbial slow-motion automobile wreck. And, you recognize, it’s not simply Trump himself, though after all he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of all the turmoil that you just see.

He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so if you ask your self the query of how may it’s that at crucial public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay one million {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how may this individual presumably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that atmosphere? It’s precisely the kind of factor that the folks round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for many of the marketing campaign. However in the end, in the important thing residence stretch right here, within the kind of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.

Rosin: Mark, identical for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?

Leibovich: I’d say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous few days.

It looks like one thing approaching the overall space of the ballpark of confidence.

Rosin: Fascinating! Anomalous for Democrats.

Leibovich: Nicely, they’re so extremely fast to embrace unhealthy information and to go proper from unhealthy information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous few days.

I imply, look, I believe their numbers internally appear slightly higher. I believe a number of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I believe you possibly can’t underestimate how a lot of a practice wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a method that, if he loses, I believe folks will very a lot level to.

Rosin: So, Mark, I keep in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race could be. Like, we have been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.

Leibovich: Nevertheless it was an excellent podcast. Everybody ought to hearken to it once more. (Laughs.)

Rosin: Nevertheless it was very, you recognize—we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button acquired pressed in July.

Tim, the total Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous few months began, really, based on your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?

Alberta: I believe that perhaps the correct visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it largely to loss of life and is now simply kind of pawing at it, toying with it, not sure of actually what to do as a result of, nicely, what’s left to do?

Donald Trump actually discovered himself, based on all of the reporting I did, kind of over it. Type of uninterested in operating in opposition to Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this kind of hapless previous man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant method in opposition to Trump. And so I believe that he’s Joe Biden considering, Gosh that is kind of a bore, and round this time, after all, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is healthier than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.

The battleground polling is displaying him constantly pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are making ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, you recognize, The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is kind of giddy and gleeful. They’re trying round like, Nothing can cease us.

And round this time is if you began to see Trump speaking slightly bit in a different way, behaving slightly bit in a different way, based on folks near him—nearly in search of some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to folks on the surface. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was offended, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it kind of sewn up in opposition to Biden, and he preferred operating in opposition to Biden within the sense that Biden actually, you recognize, couldn’t punch again.

However I believe additionally he’s kind of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s acquired this stay goal. He’s in a position to channel among the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You realize, Trump, I believe, seen the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go entire hog once more.

However the folks round him have been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And albeit, the explanation you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and operating the sort of, you recognize, completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you just want to run and that you’d run should you have been left to your individual gadgets. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who have been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different folks to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.

Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?

Leibovich: I believe in a sort of measured method. I imply, I believe, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want folks to amplify. I imply, to a point you do, as a result of retailers that a number of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from a number of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.

I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I believe they’ve been very deft—they’ve made a number of adverts across the sort of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a lady’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to a point, they’re making an attempt to spotlight it, however to a different diploma—it is a huge political-operative cliché, however they’re operating their race.

And I believe the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I believe Harris has carried out significantly better than lots of people thought she would, and I believe her marketing campaign has made a number of good choices, and she or he herself has made a number of good choices.

Rosin: It does, from the surface, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of should you assume again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition won’t be clean.

Leibovich: Oh, one hundred pc. I imply, Tim and I, keep in mind, we have been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually sort of at his peak then, which is sort of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his recognition, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you may nearly sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I assume it was Thursday night time, after which about midway via, he simply sort of went off the rails, and he simply kind of—it grew to become only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from sort of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try to one thing fully totally different, which sort of grew to become a metaphor for the way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.

And naturally, three days later, Biden acquired out after which the world modified once more.

Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic closing months of the Trump marketing campaign may find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.

[Break]

Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we really care about is whether or not it has any impression on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe may have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re frightened about?

Alberta: Nicely, look, if these episodes have been contained to only Trump being slightly bit goofy or going off message and kind of ranting and raving in regards to the newest one who mentioned one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t assume it will have a lot real-world impact. However I believe that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that truly will get to a elementary weak point, which is a failure of the Trump staff to increase its coalition.

Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the way in which during which the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the folks near him. So, for instance, we all know primarily based on six months of actually stable, constant knowledge that Trump is prone to carry out higher with Latino voters as an entire and notably with Latino males below 40 than any Republican nominee in trendy historical past.

And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that certainly one of your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.

One other core element of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How can we maintain our margins tight within the suburbs outdoors of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How can we maintain our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban girls? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how can we handle to maintain it shut? How can we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as an alternative of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?

And if you have a look at, for instance, the collection of J. D. Vance and, you recognize, his previous, greatest-hits reel round childless cat girls, and he thinks abortion must be unlawful nationwide, proper?

And there’s simply one thing that kind of went basically awry over the summer season. I believe Mark is correct. Each of us have been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Evening victory celebration. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking in regards to the marketing campaign as if it have been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats girl was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I keep in mind corresponding with a number of good Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, and so they have been slightly bit nervous in regards to the Vance choice. After which on Thursday night time, to Mark’s level, Trump offers this kind of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander a number of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, you recognize, 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and immediately, these dominoes began to fall.

And what we noticed was all the best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was kind of foolish he mentioned that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, nevertheless it’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I believe, could have an actual impression on the poll field.

Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they have been following pretty efficiently, which is: try to win over, you recognize, some middle-of-the-road voters, or at the least not massively alienate these folks.

However, Trump has been operating a really totally different sort of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground sources. And that looks like a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.

The technique was all the time simply: get a number of consideration.

Alberta: I believe it depends upon the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, you recognize, a whole lot of cameras following him round there and talks in regards to the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—you recognize, that’s consideration, and it might even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump folks, proper? They have a look at this kind of cost-benefit evaluation and so they acknowledge that, certain, we’d antagonize some folks with this rhetoric. We would alienate some folks with our deal with these points, however we expect that the reward is much higher than the chance.

So there’s, I believe, loads of good consideration that the Trump folks do need. I believe what they’ve tried to keep away from is a number of the sideshow that’s interesting to among the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And in the end on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.

Leibovich: Proper, and I believe, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient concern for Trump. While you tip that into folks consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they appear to be fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really critical and efficient concern for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.

Rosin: So the artwork of operating a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the correct of chaos, the correct of consideration, however should you lose management of it, it simply comes again to chew you. Is that principally what’s occurred?

Alberta: Yeah, and it’s all the time gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These folks aren’t silly. They knew what they have been getting themselves into. In reality, Chris LaCivita—who is without doubt one of the two folks managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside a number of weeks of his determination to affix the operation again within the fall of 2022, you will have Trump saying that he needs to terminate elements of the Structure. You’ve Trump saying and doing these kind of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is kind of trying round saying, What have I gotten myself into?

And naturally people who find themselves associates with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you have been signing up for. You realize precisely what you have been getting your self into. So I believe no matter diploma of self-delusion might exist on the outset, when a few of these people ally themselves with Donald Trump, you recognize, it dissolves fairly shortly and so they turn out to be clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.

And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking conduct, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which might be sort of doubtlessly poisonous into productiveness. They’re making an attempt to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For many of the marketing campaign, they have been really doing a reasonably good job of it. However at a sure level I believe it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.

Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, slightly dose of confidence. Is that due to every little thing that Tim has described?

Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I believe Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never identical to, Oh, look, he mentioned this and kind of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications in regards to the revulsion that girls are having—girls voters are having for Trump—much more so than typical. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and perhaps even mendacity to their husbands about—to sort of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is principally saying, you recognize, a number of Republican girls are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I believe they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I’d say, you recognize, it will in all probability be an absolute verboten factor for anybody wherever close to the Harris marketing campaign to point out something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, you recognize—Biden was purported to win by much more than he did.

And I believe what freaks everybody out is the concept Trump, within the two instances he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls and so they’re undercounting African American voters, girls voters, and so forth.

So anyway, I believe all of that’s sort of baked into this, however look, I don’t need to counsel that something apart from huge anxiousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.

Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s go away the listeners with ideas about Election Evening. There’s the zen possibility, and hopefully a lot of our listeners will benefit from the zen possibility.

Take a protracted, 12-hour stroll. Be residence by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. In need of that, the map is admittedly huge and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s quite a bit. So for individuals who usually are not spiritually constructed for the zen possibility, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the night time.

Leibovich: Nicely, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I believe there’s quite a bit you possibly can be taught if you will get info from different states. You realize, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—a number of insiders have been speaking about over the previous few days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought of a swing state. Safely purple, definitely has been in the previous few elections, definitely for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday night time, having Harris forward by three.

Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric consequence for folks on Staff Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, you recognize, perhaps present Trump’s margins slightly decrease than you’ll anticipate, presumably that’s one thing which you could be taught from.

So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which is able to in all probability take some time to depend, particularly in among the states with legal guidelines that make it more durable to depend early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I believe we will be taught from lots of people.

And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that you recognize precisely who’s going to win, however you possibly can be taught from.

Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of information that’s attention-grabbing. Tim, what about you?

Alberta: So there’s a recognized recognized, and a recognized unknown. The recognized recognized is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to a point younger voters.

And I believe particularly if we’re Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we must be taking note of this, proper? I believe the recognized unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get crushed up amongst suburban girls, or does he get demolished amongst suburban girls?

And I believe that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.

So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties outdoors of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties outdoors of Milwaukee. You must have a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t need to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, in the end, that’s the place the election goes to be received or misplaced.

Rosin: Each of you’re saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply huge, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you just’ll be in search of.

Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers recreation. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply constantly present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even should you’re in search of a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper seems to be like he’s going to win and perhaps even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Evening in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to principally a draw. I believe it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, you recognize, a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.

So these are the elements of the nation the place I believe should you’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a reasonably good thought.

Rosin: Okay. I believe we have now choices for the meditators and choices for individuals who can not carry themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on at the present time earlier than the election.

Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.

Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We will meditate collectively.

Leibovich: I stay up for it. Yep, we’ll be a part of figurative arms.

Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although presumably sooner than our typical Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.

Thanks for listening.