When Donald Trump was elected president in 2016, many individuals hadn’t seen it coming. But when that they had been paying shut consideration to what was occurring within the U.Okay., perhaps they’d have. A couple of months earlier than the U.S. election, the U.Okay. had voted to go away the European Union. That vote, too, was a shock. However it confirmed that the anti-globalization, anti-elite, anti-establishment sentiment was stronger than many individuals had predicted.

Subsequent week, on July 4, the U.Okay. is once more dealing with an important vote. However this time the temper may be very totally different than what’s occurring within the U.S., in telling methods. After a sequence of scandals, the Conservative Social gathering seems prefer it’s headed for a bruising defeat. Rishi Sunak could even make historical past as the primary sitting prime minister to lose their seat in a basic election. Voters within the U.Okay. appear to have comparable discontents to those that present up in U.S. polls: rising costs, housing shortages, immigration. However within the U.Okay., they’re holding the Conservatives accountable and planning to vote within the rival Labour Social gathering.

How did the Conservative Social gathering fall off the cliff? How did the Labour Social gathering thread the needle so effectively? And what might Democrats hoping to defeat Trump study from Labour’s technique? On this episode, we speak to London-based Atlantic employees author Helen Lewis concerning the Conservative scandals, Labour’s ingenuity, and the right-wing nationalists ready within the wings.

Take heed to the dialog right here:

The next is a transcript of the episode:

Hanna Rosin: Eight years in the past, the U.Okay. and the U.S. went by means of very equally surprising votes. The U.Okay. stunned folks around the globe by voting for Brexit.

Rosin: That was in June 2016. After which in November of that very same yr, Donald Trump was elected.

Rosin: Each nations appeared to be in a extra nationalist temper, pushing again in opposition to large world change.

Now, in 2024, the 2 nations are additionally going by means of elections just a few months aside—solely the U.Okay. could also be entering into a really totally different route.

I’m Hanna Rosin. That is Radio Atlantic, and in the present day we’re gonna dig into the U.Okay. elections with London-based Atlantic employees author Helen Lewis.

All polls present that the Conservative Social gathering, also referred to as the Tories, is headed for an enormous and bruising loss, whereas the Labour Social gathering is threading the needle in a very efficient method. After which, ready within the wings, a populist right-wing faction.

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Rosin: Hello, Helen.

Helen Lewis: Good day.

Rosin: Hey. So, your election is arising method earlier than ours.

Lewis: Yeah, we’re having a six-week election marketing campaign, which I’d extremely suggest, quite than the American one, which appears to final about three and a half years.

Rosin: It’s true. It’s form of unimaginable. And I really feel such as you guys are rudely holding your election on American Independence Day. Like, ought to we learn something into that?

Lewis: Mmm—yeah, I feel that ship has sailed. I don’t suppose you could be “re-independent” once more, I’m afraid.

Rosin: (Laughs.) Oh, boy. So all the pieces I learn concerning the election says that the Conservative Social gathering will lose—like actually, actually, actually lose.

Lewis: That has been the image within the polls since about 2022, that the ruling Conservative Social gathering, the center-right occasion, took a knock again then and has by no means actually recovered. And everybody form of has naturally assumed, , Properly, the Conservatives have gotten this unimaginable campaigning machine. As quickly as the final election kicks in, the polls will slender.

And really, the story is that they actually haven’t. The Conservative marketing campaign has been a catastrophe present, high to backside. , this was a celebration that when styled itself because the pure occasion of presidency, and it’s a full basket case.

, as we’re speaking, a number of folks round Rishi Sunak, the prime minister, have been accused of inserting bets on the election date utilizing insider data that they gathered. That’s the extent of form of minor-league crackpottery that we’re speaking about.

Rosin: Okay, I simply wish to sluggish one factor down. He referred to as for elections. Rather a lot about that not solely just isn’t apparent to an American viewers; it’s not apparent to anybody, like, why he would name an election now after they have been so behind. So perhaps simply begin with the fundamentals. What does that imply that your present PM can name an election? And why did he do it now?

Lewis: So one of many prerogatives of the British prime minister—there was a quick pause on this, however at present—is that they get to decide on when the election date is.

And so he went out into Downing Road, outdoors the prime minister’s official residence in London, to announce that he determined to name this surprising, shock election. And it poured with rain. And he hadn’t taken an umbrella. In order that was dangerous. So all the photographs have been referred to as issues like Drowning Road and stuff like that.

And for the final couple of years—truly, since Brexit—there’s been a protester who has stood outdoors of a Home of Commons or Downing Road, usually taking part in very loud songs to a loudspeaker, and the music that he was taking part in very clearly within the background of Rishi Sunak giving that speech is D:Ream’s “Issues Can Solely Get Higher,” which is the anthem for the 1997 Labour landslide.

Lewis: And if that music—Rishi Sunak began talking. It began raining, after which you may hear the verse of that music constructing, and also you knew what was coming. And it was simply this form of sense of horrible, yawning horror.

Lewis: So, one factor after one other, these gaffes have simply piled up. And the factor that’s been actually attention-grabbing about it’s usually you’d count on the Conservative Social gathering to get a comparatively straightforward trip from the print press, which within the U.Okay. may be very right-leaning. However even they’ve been pressured to concede it’s going actually, actually badly.

Rosin: Proper. However why if it’s going so badly, why would he name the election now? I assumed he had a short time to go earlier than he completely needed to.

Lewis: So Rishi Sunak had months and months left to go, however he determined to go early. And there are a few theories about why he did this.

Considered one of them was that he anticipated worse financial information to return out over the summer season. So inflation has been stubbornly excessive—truly, it’s ended up dropping barely. Rates of interest, the fear was, would keep excessive and that extra folks would come off fixed-term mortgage offers that they’d gone onto when rates of interest have been a lot decrease, and subsequently their mortgages would leap dramatically—and subsequently, they’d suppose that the financial image was dangerous and be more likely to vote in opposition to the federal government.

After which additionally the summer season is the height time for small boats arriving, carrying asylum seekers and unlawful immigrants from France into Britain. And that has been a giant campaigning problem of the Conservatives. Considered one of their pledges in authorities was to “cease the boats.” They usually’ve been utterly unable to try this, and I feel will at all times be unable to try this, for a similar motive that, , the rouse concerning the border wall with Mexico. , you may clamp down on it, however you’ll by no means cease folks attempting to make these journeys, as a result of, , the rewards for them are so excessive and their conditions are so determined on the opposite facet.

So all of these elements, I feel, made him suppose that issues have been solely going to worsen over the summer season and that he was simply continuously going to be requested, , When are you going to name the election? When are you going to name the election? And perhaps you need to simply get it out of the way in which.

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, you’re simply describing Rishi Sunak’s tenure. However the attention-grabbing factor about this second is that they’ve been in energy for 14 years. It simply looks like an enormous—crashingly big—second, like they’re simply falling off a cliff.

Lewis: It’s extraordinary. I imply, my total profession masking British politics has been below Conservative rule. And the factor that’s actually necessary to recollect is that David Cameron was the Tory prime minister from 2010 to 2016. And that was, —it was a tricky period of austerity, however the authorities was comparatively form of secure. It was a coalition after which the Tory majority.

Then Brexit occurs in 2016. And after that, in comparatively fast succession, you may have Theresa Might, who can’t get a Brexit deal by means of. After which Boris Johnson does get a Brexit deal by means of after which collapses in a chaos of getting partied by means of COVID-19, mainly and damaged COVID-19 guidelines. After which he’s introduced down. The Tory members then select Liz Truss, who desires to chop the tax charges for high earners and produce on this very form of libertarian finances, spooks the markets, and the price of our debt goes up.

She lasts 49 days, relying on the way you depend it, after which they bring about in Rishi Sunak, the runner-up to her. After Brexit, what it did is—you may say Brexit actually killed the Tory Social gathering. They bought all the pieces they ever needed, the factor that they’d mentioned was this nice, not possible dream (the Eurosceptic proper) for a very long time.

After which it was an extremely poisoned chalice.

Rosin: Properly, it’s attention-grabbing as a result of it looks like I haven’t heard the phrase Brexit very a lot on this election. Like, what occurred to all of these intense politics of Brexit?

Lewis: Yeah, I imply, I interviewed Anand Menon, who works for a suppose tank referred to as U.Okay. in a Altering Europe, and he mentioned, The factor that unites each leavers and remainers within the focus teams that we do is that they don’t wish to speak about Brexit. They’re bored of it. Or for the leavers, it wasn’t the factor that they have been promised, and for the remainers, it’s one thing that they hated that was completed to them, and so they really feel offended about it. Additionally they know the query can’t be reopened.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Lewis: That’s form of fascinating to me, as a result of one of many causes I feel that so many individuals are voting in opposition to the Conservatives—and I feel the way in which to see this election is it’s an anti-Conservative election as a result of the votes are going from them to the Liberal Democrats, who’re a form of centrist occasion. They’re going to Reform, which is a radical-right occasion, and so they’re going to Labour, which is a center-left occasion. However so it’s an anti-Tory election, and other people really feel that the Conservatives simply tousled. They usually spent quite a lot of time—, spent three years not doing Brexit after the nation voted for it.

After which the massive query now, after all, is that basically Britain’s financial system is in a fairly woeful state. Our productiveness is kind of low. Our medical ready lists are very lengthy. The one factor, actually that will be a form of instantaneous win can be rejoining the only market, which is what we have been in after we have been within the European Union.

And that’s one thing that simply Labour don’t wish to speak about, as a result of the concept that Brexit has been betrayed can be an amazing rallying trigger for the form of radical proper once more. And so Labour’s strategy on this election—you would possibly say we’re about to have an amazing, large swing again to the center-left, however that’s moderated by the truth that so as to win, Labour have been very, very cautious about their program.

, they’ve mainly accepted the form of spending envelope that they’ve inherited. They’re not planning to splash money after they are available in any respect. They usually’re additionally, what they are saying now, is that they’re not planning to reopen the query of our relationship with the European Union. I don’t suppose that’s true, however that’s what they’re saying.

Rosin: , it’s attention-grabbing what you mentioned concerning the British financial system. It’s not how I give it some thought. I usually consider the U.Okay. as a fairly well-to-do, affluent place.

Lewis: I feel it’s very onerous, perhaps, for People to comprehend when the bits of British tradition they eat are—, perhaps it’s Downton Abbey or Physician Who or no matter it could be, however Britain is a a lot poorer nation than America. By European requirements, it’s not doing too badly, however by American requirements, , we don’t drive as good automobiles as you do. We don’t stay in these larger homes as you do, on common.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Lewis: And so, the general public realm has felt prefer it’s actually fraying. For the time being, about one in 5 individuals are on a ready listing for medical care below the Nationwide Well being Service. And that’s big. There are fairly a giant variety of folks in that 50-to-64 age group who haven’t gone again to work full time since COVID-19. Now that could be that they’re affected by, , the aftereffects of COVID-19. That could be that they’re, say, ready for a knee operation or to see somebody about their coronary heart hassle or no matter it could be.

And they’re simply form of caught on these ready lists. And it is a actually large downside for the Conservatives, notably as a result of their voting base is so previous. In order that they’re fishing in a pool of, , We’ll shield pensioner advantages. We’ll shield pensions. However then, additionally, that’s precisely the identical group that’s most in want of medical care and is most likely, subsequently, more likely to be ready, languishing on a ready listing, ready to see, , a specialist physician.

Rosin: Proper. Okay. So this isn’t form of summary finances points. These are form of day-to-day, real-life points. Was there one thing, should you look again at Conservative guidelines—so overlook concerning the politics—that folks look again on, and so they mentioned, Oh, the Tories mishandled the financial system on this or that method, and that’s why they’re even comparatively worse off within the final eight years than the U.S.?

Lewis: Properly, that is my private opinion. However sure, I feel all the program of what was referred to as austerity below David Cameron and George Osborne within the early 2010s was a mistake. That was a time when rates of interest have been low. We might have borrowed cash to put money into public companies. As a substitute, they went by means of a giant program of chopping again the state.

In Britain, native authorities are answerable for social care. So should you want at-home care, , both as a weak grownup or as a toddler, these issues are within the present of councils. And so council budgets have been stripped again massively.

, they in all probability did have some fats in them, popping out of the Labour years and, , they coasted downhill on a few of that, however the gaps have actually begun to point out now, and issues do look fairly threadbare, I feel.

[Music]

Rosin: Alright, so we’ve mentioned the Conservative Social gathering and what went fallacious throughout their time in energy. So what would the nation appear to be below Labour? That’s after the break.

[Music]

Rosin: Okay, Helen, we’ve talked loads concerning the Tories, but it surely looks like Labour is the one which can be about to be in management. So what’s up with them?

Lewis: Properly, Labour has had a fully wild transformation within the final 5 years. In 2015, Labour misplaced to the Conservatives, , I feel one which they have been maybe hoping to win. And at that time, the members elected Jeremy Corbyn, who was a lifelong backbencher—, a thorn within the facet of the Labour management. He was a socialist. He was anti-war. He was anti-imperialist. , he got here from that very specific left, hard-left custom.

Rosin: Uh-huh.

Lewis: And he was completely terrifying to the conservative press. , it turned out he didn’t too dangerous within the 2017 election, admittedly in opposition to a really poor opponent in Theresa Might.

However by 2019, folks had actually purchased the concept that he was (A) lower than it and (B) , form of a radical leftist, basically. And so Keir Starmer was chosen as Labour chief, not solely promising a whole break with the Corbyn years. He mentioned that Corbyn hadn’t completed sufficient on anti-Semitism throughout the occasion.

However he definitely didn’t are available saying, I wish to smash up each little bit of Jeremy Corbyn’s legacy. However that’s what he’s completed.

Rosin: So he’s mainly a centrist.

Lewis: Properly, is he? That is the query. In case you take a look at his life and report, , he was a human-rights lawyer. As a young person, he was at college with Andrew Sullivan. And Andrew Sullivan says, , I used to be a form of Reaganite, and he was a Eurocommunist.

Rosin: Attention-grabbing.

Lewis: Yeah. So, , he has clearly been on a political journey, even himself. And the query is: How a lot of that’s that’s the place he thinks the voters are, and the way a lot of that could be a real conversion? However, basically, what occurred was that the group round him recognized the truth that the one solution to win the election was to maneuver to the middle, which is what Tony Blair, the form of nice Labour chief who received in Labour phrases—, received this large majority in 1997—mentioned: Elections are received from the middle.

And so the evaluation that Labour made was, We don’t wish to pile up votes within the cities and college cities. The place we wish to win is we wish to win again that crimson wall of these Northern English seats. Each voter we win again from the Conservatives is form of price double, on condition that we’re the one two events that may lead the nation.

And they also moved actually definitively to the middle, each in financial phrases and in cultural phrases. Starmer and his deputy, Angela Rayner, took the knee throughout 2020 and posted a photograph of themselves doing that. And I don’t suppose they’d do this now. , now they’d be more likely to be speaking about, , how necessary the English flag was and patriotism is, and all these reassuring messages to voters within the center and small-C conservative voters.

Rosin: Attention-grabbing. So what does that appear to be in apply? Like, take culture-war points. I imply, they’re very a lot alive within the U.S. Did they simply tamp them down and form of not speak about identity-culture points?

Lewis: They’ve tried to neutralize that as a lot as potential. So, take gender, which is a topic that I cowl loads. The opposite Labour candidates, after they have been standing for election in 2020, signed a pledge, pledging to herald self-identification of gender and likewise to prescribe a few feminist teams, saying that they have been form of anti-trans bigots.

Keir Starmer declined to signal that pledge. He signed a milder model of a form of trans-rights pledge. And ever since, Labour has tried to tack a course down the center of claiming, After all, ladies have some authentic issues, however we’re additionally a celebration of equality.

I don’t suppose they’ve solely threaded that needle but, as a result of J. Okay. Rowling has been out criticizing them for form of sitting on the fence and probably not, , totally committing to 1 place or one other. However they’ve definitely moved a great distance from the place they have been below Jeremy Corbyn on that problem.

They’ve moved a great distance from the place they have been within the Jeremy Corbyn period on, say, immigration. , our help for Ukraine can be one other one. Israel has been a very tough problem for Keir Starmer as a result of there are many Labour MPs with very sturdy Muslim populations of their wards, and for these voters, we all know that Gaza is a giant problem, and Labour was fairly sluggish to name for a ceasefire. And that’s been one thing that’s been thrown in opposition to a few of their candidates in, say, among the Birmingham seats, for instance.

Rosin: Does J. Okay. Rowling have affect in a U.Okay. election?

Lewis: Sure. I imply, in cultural phrases, sure. , she was the splash on the Occasions when she wrote that piece. However, , I don’t suppose she is going to transfer an unlimited quantity of votes, simply just because I feel Labour is piling up votes the place it must be. And I feel though gender is a matter that issues to a lot of folks within the U.Okay., I’m undecided how many individuals, , would vote on tradition first quite than economics.

Rosin: Uh-huh.

Lewis: And I feel that’s the lesson that the Conservatives have discovered on this election, that tradition wars are all very effectively when, , there’s nothing else to speak about. However most individuals will not be going to vote on a culture-war foundation if the principle factor that they’re nervous about is, I can’t pay my mortgage, and I’ve been ready for 2 years for a hip substitute.

Rosin: Proper. So it’s simply financial points. Like, financial points rule the day. However now Labour goes to inherit all these financial points. So do you get the sense that they’ve some plan to take care of these tough issues?

Lewis: Yeah, I imply, I feel, I feel you should have an extremely tough job as a result of the basics of the British financial system are in a foul method. And the levers that you’d pull are rejoining the only market and likewise constructing an unlimited variety of homes in order that younger folks can extra effectively distribute themselves and stay within the locations the place there are jobs.

And each of these insurance policies have large losers to them. , a lot of folks’s total wealth now, notably older folks, is constructed into the thought of their home. That’s their nest egg. That’s their pension. That’s how they may hope to pay for social care if issues go actually fallacious. And , additionally, they like their view. They like their facilities. They like all the pieces being as they purchased it. They don’t essentially need a large tower block subsequent to them, or no matter it could be.

And so, , he’s going to have actual problem in enacting insurance policies which have losers.

Rosin: Proper. One factor we haven’t talked about and utterly not noted of this potential future image is the Reform Social gathering. Are you able to clarify what that’s and what’s happening with them? As a result of it’s necessary.

Lewis: So should you’ve ever seen a form of man in an odd blazer with a barely, form of, froggy smile beaming subsequent to Donald Trump, that’s Nigel Farage.

Rosin: (Laughs.) You guys are a lot liberally meaner than we’re in sure methods. It’s so pleasant. Anyway, sure.

Lewis: I imply, that’s who he’s. Somebody identified he seems loads like—he’s been sporting this white, striped blazer, which is form of a cricket blazer, and—he does appear to be the dangerous archaeologist within the Indiana Jones movies.

Anyway, he’s a rare character in British politics. He was concerned in a celebration referred to as the U.Okay. Independence Social gathering. So he’s privately educated, then he went to work as a metropolis dealer, after which he bought concerned in Eurosceptic politics all through the ’90s, when that was a form of fringe obsession of the proper, of the Tory Social gathering. And he served a number of phrases as a member of the European Parliament, on a regular basis campaigning for Britain to go away the EU.

After which he actually form of got here to prominence when that tendency picked itself up within the Conservative Social gathering. And it turned the factor, should you needed to change into a Conservative member of Parliament, you mentioned to the citizens. , you mentioned, after all, I’m very a lot in favor of leaving the EU, whether or not you meant it or not.

And so we find yourself on this bizarre place the place the stress was so nice on the Conservative Social gathering to grant a referendum that David Cameron put it within the manifesto for 2015, hoping that it will be traded away in any coalition take care of the Lib Dems, unexpectedly received a majority in 2015, after which truly needed to do it.

At which level, Nigel Farage form of bloomed onto the stage. He then helped win this unimaginable victory for Brexit. And that was seen, —the prime minister thought that was a foul thought, and other people voted for it anyway. And the prime minister then needed to step down.

Rosin: So Nigel Farage is form of most related to the pure core of Brexit, Brexiters.

Lewis: Proper. After which he form of appeared to get a bit uninterested in the tiny, piddling politics of the U.Okay. and began going to the Conservative Political Motion Convention—, the very large right-wing jamboree.

Rosin: CPAC. Nigel Farage was at CPAC. So I’m getting an image of somebody who’s endlessly attempting to distinguish themselves whereas the Conservative Social gathering is endlessly attempting to co-opt him.

Lewis: Yeah, form of. Yeah. And I feel he was additionally very helpful for that. As I say, the print newspapers, which remains to be very highly effective in British political tradition, what they discovered Nigel Farage and his varied incarnations helpful for is for stiffening the sinews of the Conservative Social gathering—, saying, Properly, should you don’t give the correct Brexit, should you don’t in the reduction of immigration, then individuals are going to vote for Nigel Farage. Look how extremely common he’s. And he’s bought unimaginable title recognition. I used to be trying it up—YouGov discovered that 98 % of individuals in Britain have heard of him. He’s an extremely common determine along with his supporters.

And this has been an issue for the Conservative Social gathering, which I feel is analogous to the Republican Social gathering, which is: The non-radical, disruptive, “Drain the swamp,” “Tear all of it down,” “I wish to see the world burn” parts have misplaced the flexibility to argue for their very own values as a optimistic factor.

Yeah, the center-right has simply misplaced the knack for making compelling arguments for its personal insurance policies, in their very own proper. And that’s one thing that I feel that each the Republicans and the British Conservatives have form of struggled with recently.

Rosin: Attention-grabbing. Okay, that may be very comparable. He’s not the chief of the occasion the way in which Donald Trump is, however he’s the chief of a form of vitality, whereas the Conservative Social gathering has did not articulate itself or another imaginative and prescient, whereas for him, what he stands for.

Lewis: Proper.

Rosin: Okay, so simply to finish precisely the place we began, there’s a likelihood then that 2024 ends with Nigel Farage having energy, Donald Trump having energy, and not less than answerable for the right-wing events?

Lewis: Properly, that’s the sophisticated wrinkle right here, which is: Nigel Farage’s Reform Social gathering is anticipated to win—at most—4 seats. I feel he would possibly very effectively change into a member of Parliament.

However, realistically, what they’re most probably to do is act as a spoiler. , in seats which can be marginal, that when have been a really secure Conservative seat, and now Labour are a powerful challenger, if the Reform Social gathering takes 5,000, 10,000 votes, that can hand that seat to Labour. So he isn’t in energy a lot as he’s a dealmaker and a form of deal-breaker for the Conservatives. However you’re proper—he does have an unlimited quantity of energy as a result of he’ll simply be in Parliament, with all of the privileges that meaning after this election.

And the Conservatives shall be going by means of a management election—as a result of Rishi Sunak will depart—and one of many large questions for the subsequent chief shall be, , Would you let Nigel Farage be part of the Conservative Social gathering? , The place is the way forward for your occasion? What do you suppose he’s bought proper and is common that you simply’ve bought fallacious?

And so, , I feel Britain has been comparatively uncommon in Europe, in that there hasn’t been this large, radical-right surge throughout the system, when it comes to getting seats, simply due to the way in which that our elections work.

However should you look throughout Europe—you may have Giorgia Meloni in Italy, you may have Various für Deutschland in Germany, you may have Nationwide Rally (which was Entrance Nationwide) in France, you may have Viktor Orbán in Hungary—, there are large populist-right events which can be doing extraordinarily effectively. And thus far, we haven’t had that vitality represented in Parliament in fairly the identical method. And the query is, a bit like Trump and the Republicans, is there some imaginative and prescient of this wherein Nigel Farage manages to make the Conservative turkeys vote for Christmas and reverse take over their occasion?

Now, I feel they’d be mad to try this, however they’ve completed a sequence of different issues that I additionally suppose are mad, so I can’t presumably rule it out.

Rosin: Proper. Okay, so we don’t know the precise particulars, however what we do know is there’s a populist-right pressure—each nations. There’s a Conservative Social gathering slash Republican Social gathering on the lookout for an identification. There’s a Labour Social gathering that’s doing effectively within the U.Okay., and we don’t know what occurs to the Democrats. So these are mainly the three forces in play.

Lewis: Yeah, I feel you may take a look at the image and see among the comparable underlying forces. And the dual issues about what do voters need, there are clearly a giant block of voters in each nations who need competence, proper? They need a authorities that they mainly don’t have to consider. They need issues simply to work and probably not have to listen to about politics.

After which there’s a sizable block of voters in each nations who’re offended and disenfranchised, and need a little bit of vitality and chaos, and wish, form of, among the system to be torn down.

So these are each competing elements in each nations, I’d say.

Rosin: Proper. Okay, effectively, I perceive this so significantly better now. Thanks a lot, Helen, for explaining it to all of us.

Lewis: Thanks very a lot for having me.

[Music]

Rosin: This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend. It was edited by Andrea Valdez, fact-checked by Yvonne Kim, and engineered by Erica Huang. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I’m Hanna Rosin. Thanks for listening.